For ideas on the Pantheon and the Magic of the Outer Sanctum
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The Divine
- Thread starter JamesMartin
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The Divine
Eli-B
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For the multiple D&D campaigns I've built I find that players respond more positively to concise and easy to understand pantheons. I tend to max out around a dozen and give them each a specific purpose (though I'm cheeky and usually make the life and death the same deity).
Deities encompass physical and/or visible things like the seas, nature, craft and forge, trade, and they also represent ideals like fertility and love, fate and chaos, knowledge, misfortune, etc. etc.
I also gravitate towards the idea that while deities can appear as physical manifestations on exceedingly rare occasions, they don't reside on the planes of existence and aren't actual people you can freely interact with.
I don't want to get too in-depth right out of the gate, but here's some intro nonsense so people are more comfortable with their own ideas.
Deities encompass physical and/or visible things like the seas, nature, craft and forge, trade, and they also represent ideals like fertility and love, fate and chaos, knowledge, misfortune, etc. etc.
I also gravitate towards the idea that while deities can appear as physical manifestations on exceedingly rare occasions, they don't reside on the planes of existence and aren't actual people you can freely interact with.
I don't want to get too in-depth right out of the gate, but here's some intro nonsense so people are more comfortable with their own ideas.
I rather like the idea of that, combined with the way Sir Terry Pratchett wrote gods.
Their power scales directly with how many people believe in them, and how fervently they do so.
So there would be a sort of central pantheon of gods, that everyone just accepts and offers prayer to, and they'd be the ones with the power to interact with the world in meaningfully divine ways. Counter to that, small, less powerful gods, perhaps local ones that can't really do much of anything, but still exist because of people who believe in them.
That would give us a chance to build a core pantheon, but leave it open enough to allow for smaller religious cults to hold sway with relatively unheard of gods.
Their power scales directly with how many people believe in them, and how fervently they do so.
So there would be a sort of central pantheon of gods, that everyone just accepts and offers prayer to, and they'd be the ones with the power to interact with the world in meaningfully divine ways. Counter to that, small, less powerful gods, perhaps local ones that can't really do much of anything, but still exist because of people who believe in them.
That would give us a chance to build a core pantheon, but leave it open enough to allow for smaller religious cults to hold sway with relatively unheard of gods.
Eli-B
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My only listed con to that is that, in an open-forum environment like this, if people are just able to believe a deity into existence there's a giant chance it becomes muddy on how many deities exist and how to accurately keep track of them all. That comes down to how close of an eye the powers that be even want to keep on this project.
However, if we did something simple like an approval process, "Here's my deity, here's how many worshipers, here's how I want to bring them into my specific story," I think it's a fantastic idea that gives a lot of creative potential to the writers here.
However, if we did something simple like an approval process, "Here's my deity, here's how many worshipers, here's how I want to bring them into my specific story," I think it's a fantastic idea that gives a lot of creative potential to the writers here.
I would say that the best solution is a main pantheon of somewhere between 6-8, who might have different versions in different cultures (basically the idea being that one country might have "Thor", another country might have "Mars", but they're the same being. If we wind up doing a high fantasy with multiple species, they might also have different forms for each). There might also be a minor pantheon of individuals who walk the line between actual gods and immensely powerful sorcerers and might lead local cults.
The issue with the belief-based idea is that if you have that work, you basically need to build all the rules of your universe around it. If gods are created as a result of belief, then that would imply, to me, that all magic and power is built around the same principle. If it isn't, then you basically have two competing magic systems in the same universe with mutually distinct rules. That would present a real problem, especially if someone wants to play a mage in the D&D style games we have planned, as it seriously limits the possibilities of who has access to magic. It is especially a problem if we go high fantasy—things like, say, dragons are generally considered innately magical, so how would that square with divine magic being tied to belief? Does a dragon no one believes in poof out of existence?
My initial thought was a pantheon of 6 deities, each associated with a fundamental force of nature and a main abstract concept, with lesser ones that might be more niche and less defined. These would fall somewhere on the spectrum between a Greekstyle "flawed, selfish individuals" and "pure force of nature", which means they aren't fundamentally predictable.
The issue with the belief-based idea is that if you have that work, you basically need to build all the rules of your universe around it. If gods are created as a result of belief, then that would imply, to me, that all magic and power is built around the same principle. If it isn't, then you basically have two competing magic systems in the same universe with mutually distinct rules. That would present a real problem, especially if someone wants to play a mage in the D&D style games we have planned, as it seriously limits the possibilities of who has access to magic. It is especially a problem if we go high fantasy—things like, say, dragons are generally considered innately magical, so how would that square with divine magic being tied to belief? Does a dragon no one believes in poof out of existence?
My initial thought was a pantheon of 6 deities, each associated with a fundamental force of nature and a main abstract concept, with lesser ones that might be more niche and less defined. These would fall somewhere on the spectrum between a Greekstyle "flawed, selfish individuals" and "pure force of nature", which means they aren't fundamentally predictable.
NovaChridhe
Knight
I think JamesMartin is right. It should be as easy as possible and though I like the idea with the believe system, he is right in assuming it would bring about two opposing magic systems. It would be to complicated. I think if we want it to keep as simple as possible we would have to make a main pantheon, let's say for humans, and based on that we make variants for other species.
Darko Cernovsek
Soul Of Vengeance
Well if we were to stick to true D&D precepts, there would be "Arcane" and "Divine" magick, the first practiced by Mages/Sorcerers, and the second by Clerics/Priests/Druids.
Would it be too complicated? Not really, since it's only two separate sources of magic. And it would create opportunity for conflict and friction between potential mage clans, relying on the Arcane, and religious organisations, devout to the Divine. Giving writers a lot of creative freedom.
We could also tie the two magic types to the people's worldview: For example, only atheistic, grounded and self-deterministic individuals are open to learning Arcane magic, through rigorous study and mental discipline, and only religious, devout practitioners could learn/be bestowed Divine magic as a favor from their chosen deity, if deemed devout enough. The more devout they are, the more favor they earn.
Would it be too complicated? Not really, since it's only two separate sources of magic. And it would create opportunity for conflict and friction between potential mage clans, relying on the Arcane, and religious organisations, devout to the Divine. Giving writers a lot of creative freedom.
We could also tie the two magic types to the people's worldview: For example, only atheistic, grounded and self-deterministic individuals are open to learning Arcane magic, through rigorous study and mental discipline, and only religious, devout practitioners could learn/be bestowed Divine magic as a favor from their chosen deity, if deemed devout enough. The more devout they are, the more favor they earn.
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My personal preference in worldbuilding has always been "Magic as an alternative science". Basically, that while magic is, in principle, outside the ordinary, it should spring from a single set of rules and principles. Those rules don't have to be super strict or limiting—but they should be consistent enough that you can see how magic exists as a study and discipline. Basically—it becomes kind of a mess when you have a whole bunch of mutually exclusive sources of magic.
It's not an issue with it being complicated—I just don't think it makes sense for a world to have two completely unrelated sources of magic with entirely different rules. It would be better to have a single system that can be applied in multiple different ways.
It's not an issue with it being complicated—I just don't think it makes sense for a world to have two completely unrelated sources of magic with entirely different rules. It would be better to have a single system that can be applied in multiple different ways.
Darko Cernovsek
Soul Of Vengeance
Magic as an alternative science - that's basically what Arcane magic is. Practitioners of it are basically alternative scientists, in a way that they themselves conjure and shape the magical forces involved, and turn them to the desired result, like scientists develop and and shape their theories and turn them to specific inventions. Basically Supernatural Law vs. Natural Law.
Divine magic would be different, in a sense that it's something 'granted' to an individual, by a higher entity they worship, as reward for their devotion and faith.
That could even lead to a 3-way conflict potential. Technology and the belief in Natural Law, the Arcane and the belief in Supernatural Law, and the Divine, and the belief in a higher entity guiding one's destiny.
Divine magic would be different, in a sense that it's something 'granted' to an individual, by a higher entity they worship, as reward for their devotion and faith.
That could even lead to a 3-way conflict potential. Technology and the belief in Natural Law, the Arcane and the belief in Supernatural Law, and the Divine, and the belief in a higher entity guiding one's destiny.
I don't mean the practice of magic as a science—I mean the way magic works being a science. Magic is a force of nature, like gravity. It might be approached in different ways or used in different ways—but all those ways follow the same basic rules. Otherwise you get systems that are mutually exclusive and create the question of "why are there two completely unrelated, mutually distinct sources of what is, in theory, a universal force". It would be like having two completely different laws of gravity
NovaChridhe
Knight
If we went with that we would have to put down some ground rules to differentiate between the three categories. Especially how divine magic differs from arcane magic.
e.g.:
Divine Magic:
-is granted by a god/godess
-has to follow rules set by that god/godess
-can provide miracles and/or disasters (depending which god one serves)
e.g.:
Divine Magic:
-is granted by a god/godess
-has to follow rules set by that god/godess
-can provide miracles and/or disasters (depending which god one serves)
NovaChridhe
Knight
I think we are talking in circles here. The "Believe" magic system, as we would call it, has been eliminated I think. That's the one proposed pretty early in this threat. But I think it was dismissed. The probelm here is that we mistake divine and arcane magic as something different. The only thing different here is, I think, were it comes from. Either from nature or rather oneself, or the divine.
Darko Cernovsek
Soul Of Vengeance
That's basically how it works in various D&D games. I've played Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, and am very familiar with the mechanics of it.
Divine magic is granted to the priest or cleric who demonstrates sufficient devotion and obedience to his/her deity. If a cleric falls from said favor, the favor is taken away from them, since their god abandons them. Pretty straightforward in theory and execution.
Arcane magic is something that an individual learns on their own (or under guidance from a more senior mage). It's less intuitive and has to be practiced, like a skill, through specific types of meditations and mantras, before the mind becomes trained enough to project it. But once learned, it can't be taken away by any 'higher power'. It can be forgotten, like any skill when not used long enough.
(Then there are Sorcerers, who are basically born with an "innate" intuitive aptitude for magic, but for the sake of simplicity and a level playing field for all individuals, they can be omitted).
Divine magic is granted to the priest or cleric who demonstrates sufficient devotion and obedience to his/her deity. If a cleric falls from said favor, the favor is taken away from them, since their god abandons them. Pretty straightforward in theory and execution.
Arcane magic is something that an individual learns on their own (or under guidance from a more senior mage). It's less intuitive and has to be practiced, like a skill, through specific types of meditations and mantras, before the mind becomes trained enough to project it. But once learned, it can't be taken away by any 'higher power'. It can be forgotten, like any skill when not used long enough.
(Then there are Sorcerers, who are basically born with an "innate" intuitive aptitude for magic, but for the sake of simplicity and a level playing field for all individuals, they can be omitted).
Darko Cernovsek
Soul Of Vengeance
I think the misunderstanding comes from me using the word "types" of magic. I should've used "sources" of magic. Will change that. Different sources of magic. But magic as a force, is a singular phenomenon, I agree on that.
"Magic as a science" has always made the most sense to me, to be fair. Humans as we are, are naturally curious, and if magic existed in this world you'd be damn sure that we'd have studied the hell out of it to know its ins and outs.
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Bah with tradition! You have to earn godhood! So there are like maybe a handful of gods that embody the elements and the soul, and the rest of the time people/beings are attempting to achieve godhood by trying to compete to be granted a title. Like the goddess of marriage would be a person who has to work to matchmake and bring people together, and this amazing person piques one of the other gods'/goddesses' interest! Ab and thus they sponsor them and allow them a small microbe of power just to see if they can handle it! Then! If they can achieve the impossibility of doing it on a world scale, then they drink from a cup of pure essence and are granted their own powers! (Appropriate with their title!)
So you have the primal gods and then you have a sub category of new gods!
(Insert newb god jokes here)
So you have the primal gods and then you have a sub category of new gods!
(Insert newb god jokes here)
Idea leading from that!
The Old Gods; The core pantheon of raw, primal cosmic forces, fearfully powerful and accepted as fact.
Great Heroes; Mortals granted divine power from the Old Gods in that sort of trial-phase mentioned. Effectively demi-gods among mortals.
The New Gods; Great Heroes who, after death, were judged by the Old Gods to be worthy of the powers they were given in life. Their soul is given new form in something appropriately violent, benevolent, creepy, whatever it be. Their powers are then unshackled from their limitations.
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In this system, the Old Gods would be accepted fact by all but the fringes of society or the mentally deranged. The New Gods, however, would be a matter of debate, due to the knowledge of them needing to embody their godhood in life.
"Horatin has become a New God, isn't that wonderful?"
"Are you kidding? He was becoming a god of WAR! You think four crusades and a few cities is enough for that? Come on!"
Additionally, the core aspects of reality/sentient life will be represented and minor off-shoots may or may not be believed/represented etc. It'd also give a small set of gods EVERYONE has heard of, but due to the beliefs of people regarding worthiness, there will be minor gods that people don't believe in or even have never heard of.
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I propose that only the Old Gods have the executive powers to grant/remove/judge godhood.
The Old Gods; The core pantheon of raw, primal cosmic forces, fearfully powerful and accepted as fact.
Great Heroes; Mortals granted divine power from the Old Gods in that sort of trial-phase mentioned. Effectively demi-gods among mortals.
The New Gods; Great Heroes who, after death, were judged by the Old Gods to be worthy of the powers they were given in life. Their soul is given new form in something appropriately violent, benevolent, creepy, whatever it be. Their powers are then unshackled from their limitations.
-----------
In this system, the Old Gods would be accepted fact by all but the fringes of society or the mentally deranged. The New Gods, however, would be a matter of debate, due to the knowledge of them needing to embody their godhood in life.
"Horatin has become a New God, isn't that wonderful?"
"Are you kidding? He was becoming a god of WAR! You think four crusades and a few cities is enough for that? Come on!"
Additionally, the core aspects of reality/sentient life will be represented and minor off-shoots may or may not be believed/represented etc. It'd also give a small set of gods EVERYONE has heard of, but due to the beliefs of people regarding worthiness, there will be minor gods that people don't believe in or even have never heard of.
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I propose that only the Old Gods have the executive powers to grant/remove/judge godhood.
My suggestions for the core pantheon, on from that;
The Lady (Goddess of Luck)
It is oftend said that the gods do not play dice with the universe. For the most part, this is correct. The Lady (Lady Luck, as some call her) embraces true randomness and revels in its delights. The Lady answers no prayers and often punishes those who would dare ask her to mess with the world's beautiful chaos. Among gods, The Lady will play games with mortals, intervening directly, but always at random, with random consequences. As such, her intervention is difficult to discern from simply blind chance.
Blind Kai, the All-Seer (God of Knowledge)
Depicted as a shrivelled old man, it would not be entirely accurate to say he has no eyes, as his eyes hold the entire cosmos. He keeps his eyes closed permanently, as to open them would risk any mortal, or even god, gazing upon the true scope of the expanse. The horror of realising their own insignificance in relation to all of existence for all of eternity is enough to drive even the divine insane.
Ruin, the Creator (God of Cataclysm)
The only being to ever see into the eyes of Blind Kai. Ruin created the universe's first state of being before seeing the enormity of his creation through the All-Seer. Being driven to destroy such a monstrous truth, made by his own hand, he has been imprisoned by the gods to limit his power. Should he ever be released, it would spell the violent end of all that has come from his visionary genious.
Goleme (Deity of Foundation)
Amorphous, ever shifting and seemingly not even alive, Goleme is a governer of all the four elements. Often depicted as simply the rawest terrible forces of nature, (volcanoes and tornadoes, that sort of thing) to evoke their immense power, Goleme also presides over the gentler times; a light breeze through a meadow, the harnessed heat of a forge. Giving and destructive in equal measure.
Vitala, Life-Giver (Goddess of Life and Death)
Life is brought into this world through her breath, and death is her solemn duty. A grave task (ha, jokes) that she undertakes (HA, more jokes) dutifully and joyfully. Vitala loves nothing more than keeping the cycle going to nurture life as a whole. Individuals are of little concern to her, even entire populations, or even species are nothing but a side issue to the main goal of sustaining the cycle as a whole.
The Lady (Goddess of Luck)
It is oftend said that the gods do not play dice with the universe. For the most part, this is correct. The Lady (Lady Luck, as some call her) embraces true randomness and revels in its delights. The Lady answers no prayers and often punishes those who would dare ask her to mess with the world's beautiful chaos. Among gods, The Lady will play games with mortals, intervening directly, but always at random, with random consequences. As such, her intervention is difficult to discern from simply blind chance.
Blind Kai, the All-Seer (God of Knowledge)
Depicted as a shrivelled old man, it would not be entirely accurate to say he has no eyes, as his eyes hold the entire cosmos. He keeps his eyes closed permanently, as to open them would risk any mortal, or even god, gazing upon the true scope of the expanse. The horror of realising their own insignificance in relation to all of existence for all of eternity is enough to drive even the divine insane.
Ruin, the Creator (God of Cataclysm)
The only being to ever see into the eyes of Blind Kai. Ruin created the universe's first state of being before seeing the enormity of his creation through the All-Seer. Being driven to destroy such a monstrous truth, made by his own hand, he has been imprisoned by the gods to limit his power. Should he ever be released, it would spell the violent end of all that has come from his visionary genious.
Goleme (Deity of Foundation)
Amorphous, ever shifting and seemingly not even alive, Goleme is a governer of all the four elements. Often depicted as simply the rawest terrible forces of nature, (volcanoes and tornadoes, that sort of thing) to evoke their immense power, Goleme also presides over the gentler times; a light breeze through a meadow, the harnessed heat of a forge. Giving and destructive in equal measure.
Vitala, Life-Giver (Goddess of Life and Death)
Life is brought into this world through her breath, and death is her solemn duty. A grave task (ha, jokes) that she undertakes (HA, more jokes) dutifully and joyfully. Vitala loves nothing more than keeping the cycle going to nurture life as a whole. Individuals are of little concern to her, even entire populations, or even species are nothing but a side issue to the main goal of sustaining the cycle as a whole.
I love the idea of earning Godhood in principle (as you well know Mik 
) but it does present a bit of a logistical issue for a world like this. Basically, we want to limit the amount of direct divine intervention in the world (indirect stuff like being blessed by priests matters less) because divine intervention in terms of the world is going to require either staff or DMs to take a look at things. Basically, any major gods need to be fairly detached because we don't want them being super-relevant in every story and the most any player character should reasonably expect to interact with might be a demi-god (or equivalent).
That doesn't entirely rule out the idea of course—but it would probably necessitate something in the history that has made the gods withdraw somewhat.
) but it does present a bit of a logistical issue for a world like this. Basically, we want to limit the amount of direct divine intervention in the world (indirect stuff like being blessed by priests matters less) because divine intervention in terms of the world is going to require either staff or DMs to take a look at things. Basically, any major gods need to be fairly detached because we don't want them being super-relevant in every story and the most any player character should reasonably expect to interact with might be a demi-god (or equivalent). That doesn't entirely rule out the idea of course—but it would probably necessitate something in the history that has made the gods withdraw somewhat.